Episode 30 - Enby Author Lisa Bunker!

Watch Episode 30 here!

Listen to full episode :

This week, Taryn and Vanessa are joined by noted author and former New Hampshire politician Lisa Bunker!

We discuss the ins and outs of being Trans/Enby in politics, as well as Lisa's passion as a published author!

Lisa Bunker (they/them or vo/ven) has written stories all veir life. Before setting up shop as a full-time author vo had a 30-year career in non-commercial broadcasting, most recently as Program Director of the community radio station in Portland, Maine. Vo has also made homes in New Mexico, the LA area, Seattle, the Florida panhandle, and New Hampshire. Vo now lives in Sacramento, CA with veir spouse Dawn, an expert on anxiety in children and an author in her own right. Between them they have three grown children. From 2018 to 2022 Lisa represented the town of Exeter in the New Hampshire House of Representatives. Veir other active interests include chess, birding, choral singing, and musical composition.

Useful links:

Lisa's website: https://www.lisabunker.net/

Book order page: https://newwindpublishing.com/book/almond-quartz-and-finch/

"Siblinghood forever!" - Lisa Bunker

Episode Transcript:

Vanessa: 0:02

All right, so here we are. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to transcending humanity. This is episode 3030. Yeah, thank you completely forgot. I am joined today by Taryn, and our special guests, Lisa bunker. And hi, everyone saying hi. And today I'm gonna let Taryn just take the lead. So just the usual like, comment, subscribe, all that stuff gets cashed out there. The next episode or two after this, I will just be in the background, because I'm getting my vocal surgery next week, and I won't be able to talk. So not sure who we will have hosting. But hopefully, it'll be something interesting. So yeah, Taryn, I'm gonna go ahead and turn it over to you.

Taryn: 0:53

Well, happy to be on today and talking with Lisa. So Lisa, you were the were you the first trans representative in the New Hampshire State House.

Lisa Bunker: 1:05

Um, I and another trans person were elected at the same time. So my colleague Jerry cannon, and I were the first two trans people to be elected to the New Hampshire state house. And we were the second and third trans out trans people to be elected to state legislatures anywhere in the US. So Danica Rome was the first she got elected two years before I ran for the first time. And when the results of the 2016 election were announced, I was horrified as many people were, and I really felt like I had to do whatever I could to stand up against the administer the incoming administration and what it stood for and, and all that it was. So I started looking around for what to do. And I discovered that it was pretty easy to run for office for local office in New Hampshire. And I was inspired by Dennett because example. She, I love her story. I mean, she's she's, she not only was the first out trans person elected to a state legislature, but she beat a 12 term incumbent incumbent who was the self appointed Chief homophobe, homophobe of Virginia, and who was awful to her on the campaign trail, you know, said said terrible things about her misgendered her and she didn't run on identity. She didn't, you know, like I'm trans elected me. She ran on local issues, like like a sensible politician. She She lives in suburban Virginia, you know, like within the zone of Washington, DC commutes and they have terrible problems with clogged up arterioles on commute days. She ran on that, you know, she wanted to create new lanes or a bypass or something. And she were at shoe leather camp, you know, going door to door canvassing in her district. She went election she won re election and she's she's a literal and figurative Rockstar. I mean, she's a great person to be the first because she's got that star presence. And you know, she's played, played in a heavy metal band and stuff, you know, she's, she's, she's got that extra bit of pizzazz, that I think it's good for a first person to have. So Jerry and I were came along in her track. And now there's, I know, some 10s of trans people in state legislatures and city and county government and stuff. It's becoming much more regular now that somebody who's gender non conforming in some way would run for public office and when you

Vanessa: 3:36

can't stop us. Yeah, I

Taryn: 3:38

think with Danica was like, I mean, she just celebrated the win. Right and moved from delegate to Senator states. And yes, that's right. My home state of Delaware, right, we have Sarah McBride, and I believe she's running for the House. So which is also another inspirational story, right of like, just being out there starting state and going into like the federal and I mean, I think would be amazing to have her in the US House. So with Danica, the thing that I always worried about, right, because we're talking about 2016, right, that, that election, the that's where I really felt like the hot war against trans folk was really started. Right. And it was it was from the orange Oompa Loompa. And, you know, I call them the OODA loop of hate, but you really kind of kick off that. So I applaud all of your bravery, right for stepping up and stepping into the to the light because I think with visibility, it's a challenge, right? Because not everybody's ready to take that step. I think New Hampshire kind of falls into that blue state territory and least for a chunk of it, more or less right like Maine, there's a bit of toggle with libertarian and some conservatives.

Lisa Bunker: 4:51

It's pretty balanced in New Hampshire to have in part because the state has no state or income tax. There's no I'm sorry, excuse me, no sales or income tax. So, it has been, it's been a magnet in recent decades for libertarians in New Hampshire, we call them the Free Staters. And they are a significant block. They're a significant voting bloc, especially up in the northern part of the state, smaller communities. And they're a significant presence in the state legislature. So it's a 400 seat chamber. It's a huge chamber. And the first my first term, the Democrats were in the majority, my second term, the Republicans were the most recent one, it was almost it was almost exactly evenly balanced. So it's a very purple state, it's really sort of evenly balanced. But the Free Staters are a smaller but vocal and powerful minority, and they really kind of drive the party for most of the time. Every once in a while a vote would come up. I mean, most of the time, the GOP voted in lockstep they were you know, they're pretty well wet within their own party in the in the, in the official legislative meaning of the term. So they were they were they were expected to vote with the party line at all times. But every once in a while a vote would come up where there would be a different split, where it was some of the really out there libertarian stuff. We had somebody who wanted to pass a constitutional a state constitutional amendment to have New Hampshire secede from the Union. And the vote on that one went at 320. So the ad was was the Free Staters and the 320 was everybody else, just if just a few weeks ago, when they were trying to elect a speaker in the US House of Representatives we saw that have been we saw the moderate mainstream Republicans break with the hardcore right wing faction of their party and defeat Jim Jordan as speaker so it can still happen. And that gave me a lot of hope that the the moderate GOP are getting fed up and ready to maybe assert themselves a little bit more.

Taryn: 6:52

We talked about that a couple episodes ago about like the moderates or a somewhat, I think it's kind of like a, you know, at least a population that's kind of going extinct, right? Because there's so much Galileans galvanisation at the federal level, in terms of like, what we will call the the Maga crowd, right, the vocal minority that have an an unyielding grasp on power at the federal level. And I think like, you know, seeing those moderates, like that's what I would consider the Eisenhower Republican, right, like somebody who's just about doing stuff, like you said, running on the smart things, which is like fixing roads, you know, building bridges, you know, doing stuff like that, that helped the actual people. Right? I feel like that that is getting smaller and smaller, at least in voice, you know, because like, at the federal level, I feel like you have a whole bunch of people that might disagree with it, but are worried about their personal security, their safety, or, you know, just being drilled and dredged over Fox News. So at the state level, it's a little bit different, right, the dynamics are totally different. So the state that I was from in Delaware, so it was a solidly blue state after it and you know, I think a nice tilt of Republican rule. So it's been a reliable blue state, but there are pockets right in my state where it was, you know, you have the north, the south, a little more liberal. And then that center agricultural base, a little bit more conservative. So there's always been that balance. So Delos is kind of like the middle of the road. And I'm sure you had some of that in New Hampshire, right? You've got the extremes on either end, but then you all have to come together and try to get keep the government working. Do you think that the way New Hampshire was structured and politics right that that either adu or maybe gave you a bit of a bump, to break out and to be able to serve a couple of terms.

Lisa Bunker: 8:42

I was able to serve a couple times because I happen to live in a safely blue district. I didn't understand how easy it was going to be what they started out. I worked really hard to get elected. But then I realized in my second term that if I wanted to, I could just coast I didn't I didn't want to, you know, I wanted to I wanted to show up and do the work and represent. But Hampshire is has so many representatives that were broken up into tiny districts. In fact, I was one of four representatives for the small town of Exeter, so even a small town has four people in the statehouse. And Exeter is built around Phillips Exeter Academy. It's, you know, it's a school town. It's a reliably blue state or a district rather. So I could have served as long as I wanted. The the balance of power shifts in New Hampshire because of a handful of districts that are really close and could go either way, depending on turnout, depending on you know, what's driving the election. I think in 2018, the Democrats took control because the Republicans had gotten what they wanted, and it was it wasn't a presidential year. And I saw a very clear difference. When I was canvassing this was pre COVID So I knocked on a lot of doors and talk to I don't know about 300 people in my district over the course of many months. And when I talked to Democrats, they were like, Oh, my God, we have to do something. This is terrible. And the Republicans were like, oh, there's an election, you know. So that was the difference in 2018. When we got to 2020, and it was a question whether we were going to have four more years of the OPA limpa, or try to get back on a different track again. And then everybody was motivated, and a steakhouse actually went back to slim Republican majority.

Taryn: 10:32

Wow. So it sorry, Go ahead

Lisa Bunker: 10:35

No, I was done. It has it has to do each election is its own animal is the point.

Taryn: 10:41

Yeah, and I think 2018 There was a real rise in resistance. So like, for me, before Twitter became X, you know, we were I was in those resistant pods, right? Kind of getting the message out promoting Democratic politicians at the federal level. And I feel like 2018 was a real year for us to stand up against that envelope. All right. So like at the state level for you is an easier entry. But also there was a lot going on at the federal level to try and like blunt the effect of what the 2016 election was. Alright, so I want to toggle over to your time in the house. So what? For you and this I think Vanessa's as she's trying to get on the ballot to run in Ohio. Right. What were your proudest moments? You know, being a representative for your district. Right. And that house, and I just want to remind folks, like 400 representatives, or delegates, right? For what, like a million people like, I don't 1.3

Lisa Bunker: 11:40

million people. Yeah, so in the whole state. So by the numbers, we each represented 3500 people, it was really kind of local, local government on a state scale.

Taryn: 11:50

Right. So it's like you had the number of US House members, but instead of for three 330 million, it was just over a million. So for you, what were your proudest accomplishments or moments for you over that four year? Like course, and I think you had two terms. So it was 2018 to 2022? Correct?

Lisa Bunker: 12:07

I, I certainly showed up for for Rainbow bills. I co sponsored a couple of bills and showed up to to testify for or against other bills along the way we were deep New Hampshire was deep into sort of the same battles that we've seen everywhere around the country in recent years. There was a bathroom bill, there was a school sports bill. There was one hard right Republican who every two years submits the same bill, which is the one that wants to define gender care for minors as child abuse. We did successfully in my time in the house pass and X marker on state documents, we got that done. So we were fighting all the bills. You know, we were fighting all the fights that have been fought in the States and in the nation. In recent years. I was proud to be involved in that. But that was only part of it. I got pretty deeply involved in the debate over guns. That was something that I showed up at meetings for. And I was particularly proud to be in the chamber, the day that we overrode the governor's veto on the repeal of the death penalty. This was a long time coming in New Hampshire is a decade's long fight. Very interesting to be in that chamber on that day, because it was not along party lines. And party leadership on both sides was very clear about that. They said this is a conscious issue. And you know, a hardcore right wing Republican got up and talked about how he used to be vehemently pro death penalty, but then his wife passed away. And it was a terrible, terrible loss for him. It just hit him really, really hard. And he didn't want anybody else in the world to unnecessarily suffer the loss of a loved one, even one who had been convicted of a penalty crime worthy of the death penalty. So that changed his mind. On the other hand, I had a sort of conservative leaning Democrat who sat next to me in the chamber, who was deeply conflicted about the vote. He's He's a pro gun Democrat, and in his mind, the death penalty and gun rights were connected. And in the New Hampshire House, you cannot, you cannot refrain from voting if you are present, you must vote yes or no. In other state houses. There's a present but not voting button or an abstain button. But in New Hampshire, you got a red button and a green button. And if you're in the chamber, you'd have to vote. So if you really don't know what you're going to do, you just get up and leave you walk out before the vote is called. He did. My colleague who sat next to me did and we had two thirds votes plus one and overrode the governor's veto and now there is not a death penalty in New Hampshire. And that was a day where if I had shown up, I had not shown don't have the vote would have gone the other way. So every once in a while when the numbers are close, it really matters who's there who stays in the chamber down to the last single human? Either way, that was a really interesting moment. And just by being there, I was helping, you know, 400 state lawmakers 399 398, state lawmakers get used to the idea of trans people, because they had to work with me and Jerry, they just had to deal with us. And some of them, I really felt the difference to with the sort of the hardcore people versus the more moderate ones. The moderate ones were would be courteous and pleasant to your face. And, you know, they still vote the way they vote, but they were perfectly willing to treat a person as a as a as a equal colleague, and to respect pronoun choices. I mean, it went really well, I didn't have any nasty face to face encounters in my entire time there. But there were some very awkward moments, there were some cold cold stares. There was just a few people there who really are deep into a belief system where people who don't fit into the traditional binary categories to them are evil, or dangerous or an abomination, or they just, they couldn't see me as a human. And there's this very interesting moment I was I, I had a split second to make a decision. One day, I came around the corner in a hallway, I was walking in a curvy hallway, I came around the corner into a short section of Hall and coming around the other corner. The other direction was the rep that I mentioned before, who every two years sponsors the bill to define gender care for minors as child abuse, just the two of us alone, face to face for three seconds, and I had to decide what to do. And I'm proud to say that my natural instinct was to smile at him and say, Good morning. And his response was a kind of Manasa monosyllabic monosyllabic grunt a little. But I elicited a response I got I engaged him with a standard courtesy. And I got him to respond at least a little bit. And I'm actually as proud of that as anything else I did in those four years in the statehouse, because I made him deal with me as a human.

Taryn: 17:19

Yeah, and I think like, I know, I mentioned this on the pod before and on other pots, but I felt like for those of us that are out and visible, right, and think we're doing the work. You know, like, publicly, you know, where people can see us and we're not like, you know, doing it from a keyboard. I feel like we're trans bastards, right, where we're here to show people. It's a Vanessa knows on both trans guardian and both trans passport been transmitted this transmits. But like the trans passport, right, it's like, I was recounting with my co tonight that I was on a flight to New Orleans visiting you and we were doing bachelorette party. And I met this couple that never met a trans person, like an out trans person from Minnesota. We had the best conversation on the plane, right? And when we're talking about like, where to go things to do and stuff like that. They wouldn't have breakfast with me two days later, right? I've got pictures in Jackson Square with them. But it was just like, I want people to see me as you know, human being like you said, right. Like, you know, you run us over with a car we die. We you cut us we bleed, you know, we eat we love we live we pay taxes. Unless you're in New Hampshire. I'm just kidding. Yes, you're right. But that's the thing, right? It's like, you know, those of us that have the privilege of being visible and just, you know, using that visibility, we're, we're, we're showing people by us existing in our bias living and thriving, that we are just like them, you know, we're there's nothing that vastly different from us. You know, and that is I know, we've been kind of hogging it up. Do you have any questions? I know you're running for Ohio. You're trying to get on the ballot? Yeah.

Vanessa: 18:57

Which should be interesting. I'm planning on filing my paperwork next week. And signatures, I have around 60 of the 50 that I need, which isn't a lot but it's, it's an attempt so but it's very hard where I live to get them and I've tried doing quite a bit of door knocking and no one answers the doors around here. So but yeah, it's it now. Should be interesting if I get on the ballot since I'm the second trans woman in Ohio to be on the ballot. And I now have an only fans account to which should spice things up a little bit. So should have fun with that.

Lisa Bunker: 19:42

A tip for canvassing carry carry dog biscuits. You'd like if you got a little pocket in your hip pack or whatever, because you're gonna sooner or later you're going to encounter a hostile canine and nothing diffuses that moment more than a couple of milk bones. Yeah,

Vanessa: 19:58

yeah, I'm sure if I get runabout I became the same at that point. So but this is my kind of thrown it out there, and we'll see. But

Taryn: 20:10

but of luck, you're both, you're both very inspirational to me, right? You're both taking that step forward, where, you know, we're all visible, we're all out. And you know, but you too, are taking that leap and to represent, right, lead to help to build something. So, Lisa, do you have any advice for people listening, that might be considering a run for office in the state level or city level, that just things that they should think of, or consider, or, you know, maybe an approach that you can share that you you've kind of had to learn? Right? Like, maybe you don't know, me, but you want to share something, any tips for people out there listening that could help?

Lisa Bunker: 20:48

I'm sure. There's a lot of help available. There's a lot of sort of organizations on the national level that will help specifically LGBTQ people who want to run for office, there's a thing called the Victory Fund. There's there's, there's an enormous amount of sort of nuts and bolts help available from these organizations, they'll tell you how to build a campaign. I mean, again, I want to stress my my situation was pretty unusual and unique in that I really didn't have to build a campaign staff or raise an enormous amount of money or anything, it was like running for a very small local office, I raised a few $1,000, by emailing my friends, and acquaintance was acquaintances with an ask. And I had some lawn signs made and I printed some pamphlets and I knocked on a bunch of doors, I didn't have a campaign manager, I didn't have a staff. So it gets it gets more complicated if you're hiring people and buying media and things like that. But there's lots of help available. And it's important to cross your t's and dot your i's with regards to filing deadlines and reporting. There's a bunch of stuff that you know, you need to be transparent about your finances. Obviously, I don't know the situation and other states or what it's like to run for federal office. But this is a thing that lots and lots of people have done before and you don't have to reinvent it. You can get you can you can get templates and guidance. And I would urge people who are thinking of it to, to do that. And then I think after that it's it's important to just, you know, run on the issues. The fact that we are gender non conforming is incidental to our campaigns, not the center. At least that was that was my feeling. It was important not to stress that and focusing in on mine, either. Yeah, it's I mean, you know, we are, we are competent and engaged humans with, with the impulse to serve. We care about the issues. We care about the other people in our country, and we don't we're stepping up. And oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trans. So anyway, as I was saying, highways, as I was saying, guns, as I was saying,

Vanessa: 22:56

insurance, we just citizens were wired differently. That's all in this

Lisa Bunker: 23:00

one area that has no no immediate bearing on public service. Exactly. It doesn't matter. I mean, you know, some of the older conservative white men that we may end up serving with may be uncomfortable. That's their problem on our problem.

Taryn: 23:17

Yeah, I

Lisa Bunker: 23:19

think I'm also I was careful about my online presence, I went and scrubbed a few things. Because, because you will be people will go looking for anything to to make you look bad. I'm

Vanessa: 23:33

embracing the stuff that makes me look bad. So

Lisa Bunker: 23:37

it's an approach. I am not a confrontational human by nature. I didn't. And I actually ended up. I stopped serving because we decided to move but I wouldn't have run again, if we had stayed because I was tired of the dominant idea that what we were engaged in collectively was a war with two sides, and only one could win. All the time. I was in New Hampshire, I'm a we I'm a both and kind of person, we and us kind of person. I want to try to find ways to talk about all of us together, collectively. And I tried a bunch of different ways while I was there, and I just felt like the words were whipped out of my mouth by the wind, there's so many people on both sides of the aisle committed to the model of This Is War, and only one side can win. And so I got frustrated. And I felt like it was not being effective. And I decided to step step out of that arena. But I've got I have endeavors in many areas in life. And that was just one for a while. But now back to other things.

Taryn: 24:39

I want to hear about the writing. Yeah. So tell us, tell us about the so you're out in California. So I live in Sacramento down. Yeah. Yeah. So tell us about the decision to move and what you're doing now.

Lisa Bunker: 24:52

So I lived in New Hampshire for about seven years. I moved there from Maine because I met someone on OKCupid, and we had our cosmic soulmate, zap and got together and got married. And about two years ago, we started talking about, hey, you know, maybe we want a new adventure. And my, my spouse, Don has a brother who she loves very much, who lives in California, down south in Carpinteria. And we originally thinking, let's just move close to him. But we couldn't afford houses in Santa Barbara. So we started drawing bigger circles and then discovered this. I had, I had some I grew up in Southern California, and my father was a professor at UC Irvine back in the day in the chemistry department. So I grew up in Orange County in the 60s. And I was taught a prejudice against Sacramento, I was taught that it was inhabited entirely by Republicans and that there was no culture and there were no trees, and that it was, you know, a desert wasteland, which turns out not to be the case at all. It's a gorgeous city. It's, it's called the canopy city. Among other things, is there's so many trees, there's rivers, there's a huge PDQ population, its racially diverse. There's a thriving art scene. I'm now a member of a local choir, you know, having a great time here. So we found the city that we liked and visited and liked it even better. And there's a thriving Universalist, Unitarian, Unitarian Universalist Church, which is important to us. Were you, active you, us. So we found our new community, and we just, let's go to our third third somewhere else. And here we are, figuring out how to be involved. Now

Taryn: 26:44

that's amazing. Yeah, I love California. I've been out here since 2018. From

Lisa Bunker: 26:48

where? Delaware, from Delaware? Yeah, did you Did you experience any kind of culture shock because I did. Were shocks a strong word, cultural adjustments. Like, for example, I wanted to plug into the local activist community. And there was this, I found out that there's this being the state capitol, there's a lot of sort of demonstration, you know, people enacting, enacting opinions on the public stage. So I found out that there was a small group of so called D transitioners, who were going to show up on the states of the Capitol and give speeches. And I started Googling to find out who's going to show up in opposition to these people, because I wanted to go and, you know, wave a trans flag and, and, and show up in opposition to this sort of pernicious narrative that these people were pushing. I couldn't find anybody. The local LGBTQ Center was not showing up. There was one group there called pride was a riot, Sacramento, and they're the militant 20 Somethings who were going to show up, you know, wrapped in black and an engaged it's kind of, you know, sort of riot protocols. That was it, it was the D transitioners. And pride was a riot. And a whole bunch of people with cameras. It was it was weird political theater. And I sort of figured out the kind of activism that I was used to in New Hampshire, where anything would happen, people at my church would show up on a certain street corner downtown with signs and flags. And, you know, get honks from passing cars and stuff. That was that was how we we engaged in the public debate. That doesn't happen here. I think, I think in part because at the state level, at least, with regards to laws that have been passed, most of the big fights have already been won. I mean, and I think as a result, there's a certain easy complacency in the LGBTQ community, there's not a feeling of threat. And people just go about their happy lives, you know, and volunteer and, and take care of their dogs. I don't know, whatever it is people do and you know, work and have families and all the things that they do. So it's there's a certain complacency here, there's a certain feeling of what am I going to put my energy at, because there's no fights left to fight? And what what I've, what I've settled on is looking around me and actually seeing what actually needs who needs help in Sacramento and its unhoused people need help in Sacramento, not the LGBTQ community so much per se, although those circles obviously overlap. But But yeah, I have a actually have a interview tomorrow at a local service agency to see about volunteering once a week. So you know, adjusting, actually looking around, instead of sort of trying to impose my ideas or my habits on my new location, taking a moment to see what needs to be done and then stepping in on that.

Taryn: 29:37

I think that's yeah, I mean, that's a smart play, right. So like, for me, I think that the activism because I was very politically active on the East Coast, like I was, you know, there was a parade I'm marching and waving signs for candidates knocking on doors. I was running from a polling place to polling place carrying the registry, right, taking it back to democratic headquarters so they know who to call in to motivate and activate Um, you know, supported candidates that lost by her supported candidates that one. You'd like every federal politician there and every state politician, I even got to meet, shake Joe Biden's hand one. So my claim to fame was like, you know, just meeting them and just being super, super active. It's a little bit different up here. So like I'm in South Bay. So right now I'm sitting in Santa Clara, but I live in Sunnyvale. So I'm like, smack dab between Apple and Google headquarters. But the city like San Francisco, there's still some activism there, right. And unhoused people are definitely like a focal point of doing that. In just affordable housing for me every year, and I would love to meet up with you, if you come in June to pride. I always volunteer at the trans March, right. And there's still trans work to be done in the city. I mean, it's got a long storied history, right, in San Francisco. But there's also some of those clinics that you know, need our support, need funding. I am the kind of person who will, you know, just Venmo a trans person in my network or community to help them with housing. You know, I've got one friend of mine who, you know, he's living in a van that they're kind of rehabbing. And you know, like, just like, hey, like, I'm just trying to help out wherever I can, in a very small level, right, like in a very personal kind of network community. And just do what I can. I think that for culture shock. I think the food for me only was a little bit better. Like, it took me five years to find good pizza in the Bay Area.

Lisa Bunker: 31:37

Yeah. Yeah. Although the Mexican food is fantastic.

Taryn: 31:42

It's spectacular. And definitely like Japanese or like Thai. Yeah, for sure.

Lisa Bunker: 31:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Taryn: 31:50

So talk to us about what you're working on now. So you've you've got a book.

Lisa Bunker: 31:57

Authoring is my main gig. I have five published books at this point. The most recent one came out just a few weeks ago from a local micro publisher here in Sacramento. Hold this up. This is almonds, quartz, and Finch. It's a novel for readers of all ages, it's suitable for middle grade and up. And it's, it's a fantasy in that it takes place in an imaginary land long ago and far away. But after that, there's no magic or dragons. It's all human story. There's palace intrigue, there's family drama, there's some cultural strife, there's a touch of romance. And this book, one of the one of the sort of original germs for this book was the what if question, what if there was a culture where children were raised without gender, and got to choose a certain age with appropriate ceremony and the choices include a non binary option, and the children are raised with non non binary or non gendered names, so that the three words in the title, almond, quartz, and Finch are all names of characters. And they have special pronouns I have, I invented and have used in most of my books, my own set of gender, additional singular pronouns, VO, van and ver. So I put those in several books now. And this was another another origin moment for this book was I wanted to explain where those pronouns came from the ones that that I had already used another book. So this is like the origin story of my pronouns. So this is, for me, writing is it's a form of, well, it's a form of pleasure. It's what I was born to do. It's just what my brain is set up to do in the world. It's like, by the time I was five, I already knew in some way that I was not actually a boy. And and I was not going to make sense as a man, although I was not able to articulate that clearly for a long time. And I also knew that I was born to make stories. These are just the way these are things that I was born as a trans person, a writer. So I've been doing it all my life, and I love doing it. But I also see it as a form of activism. Because all of my stories have lots of LGBTQ characters. And so far, they've all been for young readers, the projects I'm considering now will be for adult audiences. So that's a new thing for me. But the books so far have all been for young readers, and they all feature LGBTQ protagonists and side characters. Without that really being the preachy point. You know, it's not a lesson in the form of a novel. It's just an exciting engrossing read, that also helps and happens to give you the opportunity to learn more about the life of a trans girl or a young gay boy, or a non binary introvert. So, yes, I see it as my necessary work. The thing that I was, I was put on the planet to do, although I have to say having said that, I put five years of work work into this most recent book. And reception has been muted, to say the least I feel like tossing pebbles in the ocean, and they're going whoop and disappearing. So it's a lot of work for not a lot of return. And I'm not hung up on fame per se. You know, I don't necessarily want to be number one on the New York Times bestseller list. But I'd like to have some impact. I'd like to reach some people. And I feel like publishing books, maybe it's not my best choice, I don't know, maybe it's time to start a YouTube channel or something. So I'm actually in this very interesting phase right now of what's my next project, trying to sort out what that's going to be. The book ideas do keep coming back when I when I go to the why in the morning and swim. And I've got that sort of free time free mental time. It is plot points that are percolating in my brain more than what I would say if I was going on YouTube and expressing opinions at the world. So probably gonna write another book. Yeah, it's probably time to get started on a new project. It's just, it's what I have to do, I guess.

Vanessa: 36:06

It's because you go insane.

Taryn: 36:09

So working on books, like so you mentioned micro publisher, so are the visual available in digital as well.

Lisa Bunker: 36:16

But this my most recent book is available as a paperback. And it's available as an ebook. And it's available as an audiobook. I worked 30 years in radio. So I have both the technical and the vocal skills. And I narrated and recorded my own audio book, which is really, really fun. And it's available everywhere. I mean, the fact that it's a micro publisher is it's interesting from an industry point of view, but it has nothing to do with the availability of the book anywhere you order books, you can order my books.

Taryn: 36:46

That's kind of where I was getting to, like, you know, when you met my publisher, I'm like, because I have a friend of mine who right who writes right, and it's more like lesbian erotica. And she's self publishes on Amazon. So, like, that's good too. Like are these are these books available on like, an Amazon or an audiobook or?

Lisa Bunker: 37:03

Yep, they're available on Audible, Apple Music, Amazon, but I would encourage anybody who's interested in supporting the local, supporting their, their author, friends, don't use those if you can avoid, especially Amazon, use your local indie bookstore, they can order it for you. Any, any good bookstore can buy any book for you. And Jeff Bezos does not need any more of our money than he's already got. And the local bookstores are always one hair away from from not being able to meet their monthly obligations. So support your local indie bookstore. And but please do read my books. They are. I'm frustrated, because I feel like people are skittish about projects like this. It's like I say, it's my new book. And they're like, they start edging away, and they get this weary look in their eyes. And it's like, Okay, let me rephrase this a different way. I spent a couple of years making the most beautiful thing I know how to make, and I would like to share it with you. And all it will cost you is $12.99, eight hours of your time. And I'm really, really proud of it. And I'm a good writer, I make stories, you're gonna enjoy this. So it's, it's, I'm still trying to figure out how to market effectively market creative work in today's creativity, saturated internet driven economy, everybody's making something, how do you decide what you're actually going to pay attention to? To whom, among all the creators in your in your life? Are you going to give the precious gift of your sustained attention? This is the puzzle of the day. And I'm still solving trying to figure out my own answer to it as a marketer of my own word. Now,

Taryn: 38:44

that's definitely a challenge. I mean, trying to like, trying to get that creativity in that work scene, right? Because I know when I'm reading a book, I'm like, I'm just like, Oh, my God, like, you know, I want to read this, but I'm like, I have no time for anything else. So I'm just like, it feels like another time, right? Like, yeah, it's hard for me because I love reading, but I'm like, it's setting that time down and chilling out and just being able to like, dive into that book. So now we'll definitely look it up. And I do have a really small little bookstore about a mile from my apartment in Sunnyvale. So I'll be heading there and seeing if I can order it that Yes.

Vanessa: 39:24

And we will I will link to whatever you want me the link and the episode description on our YouTube channel and everything so people can just easily can they easily get to it through your website.

Lisa Bunker: 39:37

I'm going to direct you to I'll give you my my website link which is Lisa bunker dotnet. And then new wind publishing. Has it to their the publisher and you can order it direct from from the publisher. Okay.

Taryn: 39:52

Great, awesome. Vanessa, anything from you? You've been relatively quiet on this. I mean, I character. Oh,

Vanessa: 40:01

as I said, I wanted to hand it over to you today, so, but

Taryn: 40:07

I had nobody lived up to those lofty expectations.

Vanessa: 40:10

You always do, you always do. Um, tell me about your life from radio.

Lisa Bunker: 40:16

That was my work for 30 years, I worked at various public radio affiliates around the country back in the starting in the 80s. And the last 14 years of my radio time, I was the Program Director of the community radio station in Portland, Maine. And this is this is old school community radio is like totally freeform entirely volunteer driven. For most of my time, there were there were three paid staff people. And we were a 24/7 live broadcast service. And it was everything, it was wildly eclectic, and I loved that. Everything from heavy metal to sound collage, to public affairs, to radio drama, to just whatever is whatever people wanted to make radio about on a weekly basis. That's so cool. And I was I was the trainer, I was the person who trained people to be hosts Saanich on the air. And I sort of I talked about radical acceptance of your real voice. I was, I was still an unexpressed, trans human. When I started that job, I had my moments of gender revelation and went through gender transition, well, I had that job. And it's a classic example of teaching other people the thing that you most need to do yourself, you know, most need to learn yourself. I'm telling 1000s of people just talk the way you talk, be who you really are on the air. And so I was telling others what I most needed to hear myself. That was a very interesting experience to come out as trans and go through gender transition. Well, working at a radio station, intensely social job, but and it was it was, you know, it was frightening at the time, it was a very heightened experience. The highs were high and the lows were low. But in retrospect, I had a really good transition. I didn't lose anything of value to me. I didn't lose family or work or for friends.

Vanessa: 42:13

Yeah, wonderful.

Lisa Bunker: 42:15

I'm, Vanessa, I want to sort of, I'm interested to talk to you for a second about your upcoming surgery. Because there was a time in my own I'm to set the stage for this. I came out as trans 15 years ago and went through what I now consider to be sort of a traditional binary transition, I claimed femininity in the world to begin to claimed identity as a trans woman. Just this past summer, I decided, You know what, I'm actually not done. And I'm a non binary person. I that was it didn't occur to me as a revelation. I've been thinking about it for a while. But I was still stuck thinking, okay, if I'm going to transition again, I need to pick a new name. I didn't want to pick a new name, it was enough of a hassle the first time. So but I finally just realized, especially if I'm writing books about non binary characters, and trying to sort of express my deep distrust and concern about binary thinking and how evitable II leads to social dysfunction and to the rise of totalitarianism. I mean, I think we've got a real problem with binary thinking, I want to dismantle as much as possible. So I think I need to live that in my life. So I pulled back I'm now identifying as non binary I'm using they them pronouns are voted in there if people are receptive to it. And for a long time, right after I transitioned, and I was still thinking, okay, now I have to be a woman in all the ways that I live. I've got to project femininity, I've got to pass. I was unhappy with my voice, I went through masculine, I went through male puberty, I have a bass, I have a low bass voice. And I used to love to sing back in the day and I felt like I couldn't sing anymore. I felt like I couldn't talk comfortably on the radio for a long time. Now back I'm talking in the voice I'm talking, I'm wearing when you know and when I'm singing bass to in a local Concert Choir,

Vanessa: 43:59

you have a beautiful voice.

Lisa Bunker: 44:01

Thank you. And, and when I when we perform, I wear a gown instead of a tux and that's me. I'm no, I'm a low voiced non binary person named Lisa wearing female clothing in public. So and here you are getting a surgery which when I was learning about these things, 10 years ago, sounded risky and doubtful. Maybe it's better than

Vanessa: 44:26

better now actually. listened to our last episode, Episode 29. I interviewed a surgeon who does the who does a trach shave and the vocal feminization in his out of his out of LA. So but if you're curious about like, the inner workings of it, listen to that one. But it's become such a standard. It's not as risky of a thing anymore. It's been around long enough. It used to be something that was more like whoa, what is this but what they do is they they go in through your mouth, and they put essentially like looking at the camera, essentially like a rubber band. They can stitch it in around your vocal cords. So and it raises the Yeah, exactly. It raises the pitch, you still have to do vocal feminization training, like what I have, because we're gonna switch into the dead voice right now. And so yeah, yeah. So I've done a lot of work to feminize it and stuff like that. But I have a lot of strain on the pitch, especially being autistic. When I have my episodes. I can't keep the voice and it it triggers me even more than just going through through an episode does so. And the trick shaven just doing while I'm in there. I haven't seen my Adam's apple since high school, but I am slowly losing weight. So yeah. But well,

Lisa Bunker: 45:55

I went through a number of, you know, modifications, I've had sexual reassignment surgery, I've had facial feminization surgery, a couple of you know, get my hairline redone. And I'm now that I've sort of swung back to the middle, you know, between the two endpoints, I'm content with all of those things. I don't feel as intense about them as I used to. I definitely needed to get the SRS. That was I did not want to have testicles, and

Vanessa: 46:24

I had that more. I had that. Three months ago. It's the best.

Lisa Bunker: 46:28

It's It's so amazing. I want to I want to write about the power of testosterone someday because it's so life is so completely different. With with with and without how sexualized you are all the time, how angry you are, how aggressive and I didn't realize how completely it was coloring my understanding of my own existence and my, the way I've moved through the world. It's one powerful molecule. Damn. So and I think I think, you know, one way of summing up what's what's troubling our planet right now is there's just too much testosterone really is. Yeah, there's, there's, there's way more than we need. It's a problem.

Vanessa: 47:14

It certainly is. Yeah, I mean, personally, I'm going down the list of surgeries, I had an orchiectomy. A year ago, I had my vaginal plasticky three months ago. I have my vocal feminization next week. And going back, I have some issues with my labia that I'm getting adjusted, adjusted, in. That's why I was looking down was actually my surgeon's office, try calling me over and over again to try to get me scheduled. It looks like that'll be end of February. And then eventually I'll do facial feminization surgery, but I need income first. Because that's it's expensive. Yeah. It's Yeah, everybody's journey on that is is individual though. I mean, the vaginal plasti. You have two of us here. Talking about how amazing that is. And it's the best. It's the best. And

Lisa Bunker: 48:05

you know, just preaching to the choir. We never know who's going to end up listening to this. There's a point I like to make, which is there's no test you have to pass. Now the trans you don't have to have had surgery. You don't have to have any modifications. Don't even ask me. What the most basic the most basic fact of the trans experience is, if you say you are you are, that's all that's required. It's internal experience. We have to take each other's word for it. So I just like to get that teaching moment in anybody's listening who didn't already know that. You can trust people. When they tell you even three year olds, you can trust them if they persistently insistently consistently tell you. I am not a girl. I'm a boy, I am not a boy, I am a girl. You can believe them. They know better than you ever will. So, yeah, just getting those talking points. It's important

Vanessa: 48:59

to get out there. We've mentioned it before, but it's been a minute since we have so yeah, thank you for that.

Taryn: 49:06

Everyone's journey is valid. So like I said, here with YouTube, having nothing done. Electrolysis in hormones, that's it. And I'm happy with that. So as a mixed indigenous person, I'm a Two Spirit. So I am weaving the male and female into a stronger different being. And I'm 100% okay with that.

Vanessa: 49:27

I love it. It's loving. That's great. And amazing, beautiful. kickass human being Taryn. And I'm, that's one thing that I love about this podcast is it's brought some of us together that we have like this bond. And it's it's wild, so people that we likely never would have met otherwise. You're my peeps. Yeah, exactly. So I know Taryn has to switch off to another podcast because she's pretty popular today.

Taryn: 50:02

I mean, California life, it's

Vanessa: 50:04

so hard. Yeah. I mean, you and your little set your studio at work that you mentioned. Yeah.

Taryn: 50:10

Yes, it's video room. So I've got to doing some ice. It's got a podcast called the spark of ages, to creators of all stripes. And we talked about what that moment was that they had that aha moment. And then how they got people to buy into it. How like, because that's the thing, you can have that aha moment. And never have anybody buy into it, but getting people to buy into your vision. So we've got a little strategy meeting that we have every week. So I'm going to toggle over to that. Lisa, it was amazing to meet you, in person here. And to talk to you and Vanessa, always good to see you booboo. So, all right, well, that's all we've got. For this episode. I think we'll have some links for where these books are available. I'm gonna go hit my bookstore this weekend and see if I can get your book ordered. And looking forward to reading it. And thanks again for being part of this. And, folks, if you're listening to this, you find value. You love what we're saying or you're maybe we're inspiring you smash that subscribe button, follow us download this episode. We've got 30 episodes and we want to hear from you and we want you to join us on the journey. So thanks so much.

Vanessa: 51:22

Thank you, both of you.

Lisa Bunker: 51:24

It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Vanessa: 51:26

Definitely.